DUPLEX DAMAGE

Hello,

I have moved from a duplex in missouri on 18 Dec 07. When I departed there were some damages incurred by my family, that I won't argue. However prior to move-in on the inspection, we listed the numerous items that were either broken, dirty or missing completely. After the inspection that they have was turned in, we were told that if we accepted the carpet and the condition of the home in it's current shape, then they will waive us of having to replace the carpet went we depart. I recieved a notice that the expenses owed were over 15000 including over 5000 toward labor costs to remove and install old carpet. My question is, is there a guideline when replacing and fixing damages occured or am I going to have to pay exactly what they say it cost?
Also, can I request a list of itemized receipts to prove costs that they have incurred and should I pay for the items that we were told would be replaced before we moved in? Should I just suck it up and say that we messed up and try and pay everything they say?
Thank you for any advice.

[OHlandlord]

Absolutely do not pay that bill. If you lived in Missouri, the LL had 30 days to itemize those damages and send you a statement saying exactly what he deducted from your deposit and what you are being charged with. Did you receive this statement within that time period? You said, "I recieved a notice that the expenses owed were over 15000 including over 5000 toward labor costs to remove and install old carpet." Was this an itemized list so that you can see a list of repairs they had to make and a charge for each repair?

Few states allow you to see the actual receipts for the charges until you take the LL to court over this bill. But before it gets that far, let me explain that there are rules to follow in determining what damages a LL may charge for. First, you cannot charge for damages that were already present when you took occupancy. (Did you get or keep a copy of the pre-move in inspection with those things listed? Do you have photos of what it looked like when you moved in? Think back, did you take any photos soon after you moved in that would show the carpet's condition then?) Next, you can't charge for normal wear and tear. You can charge for not cleaning up dirt, spills, stains, etc. But not ordinary things like a few fingerprints around light switches, a few small dings in the walls from moving, a couple small nail holes in each room from hanging pictures. W&T depends on how many people lived there (How many in your unit?) and for how long (How long was your tenancy?). Next carpet charges must use a depreciated value of the carpet in the unit. How old was the carpet in that unit? After 5-10 years, carpet is literally worthless as the LL has already deprciated the entire value and cost of it from his taxes. How long did you live there and was the carpet new then? This will determine how much they could charge for carpet that was ruined by tenants in any unit. Also, how large of an area was carpeted?

Please answer the questions I have asked above and list the charges they are attempting to get you to pay, and I can guide you further. What we will be discussing after that will be how to contest these charges with the LL. It sounds to me like he is attempting to charge you with the entire cost to replace carpeting. Even if you had ruined it, he cannot do this. Please repost with the needed info.

I didn't leave them with a forwarding address as we didn't have a residence scouted out ahead of time. I am in the Navy and was transferring to a new command. Two days ago I called the front office of the leasing management to check with them and give them my forwarding address. That is when the manager told me that there were damages and that we were in big trouble and owed alot of money and asked me if Navy Legal had contacted me? I hadn't and was taken back a little bit and asked as to why they hadn't tried to contact my old work number as there was someone there and they knew my place of employment. She said that since I hadn't left a forwarding address that they felt that it was better to go right to my chain-of-command. I asked her if she could fax me the pictures and letter that they submitted and she complied. The letter was dated january 14th and was basically a letter that stated that I had severely damaged the duplex and commented that I was a threat to rent anything in this area as well. There was a list attached for cost of repairs, but was a typed list without any itemizations, just vague items such as paint and painting supplies $1091.00. I asked if I could recieve a list of reciepts or at least itemized account of everything they purchased, because I had researched the costs and just wanted to see what I was having to pay for. She stated that she didn't have them, but she could give me a list and that we were just squabbling over nothing, because they paid someone to fix it, so I was just going to have to pay for it.
The pre move-in inspection list was lost in the move, however we had spoken with the park manager a couple of months prior to our vacating, (when the intial notice was given), about the condition of the place prior to our renting.
She stated that we would not be liable for carpet and other items that we had noted and she had the list. When I brought it to the attention of the head office(Park manager's boss) that had sent the letter, she dismissed it stating that since the carpet was stained and dirty when we left, that it didn't matter, it was our responsibility. When we were moving out I admit that I was embarrassed of the condition that we left the unit in and conveyed that to the head office and wanted to make it right, however I still feel as though the charges needed to be listed for me.
We were in a two storied 1200 sq ft duplex. All of the rooms but a 15x15(roughly) kitchen and two baths were carpet. I am married and have 4 children and resided in this duplex for 3 years and 6 months.
I hope I have answered the questions, if not please let me know and I will post anything else you feel is pertinent. I just want to do the right thing, but feel I need to at least have the correct information before proceeding. Thank you very much. Also the carpet was not new, it was stained and uncleaned and the previous park manager stated that if we would except the condition we would not be liable for replacement and the current manager confirmed that as stated earlier. Also I am being charged for screens and window locks that were not there or were broke and were listed on the inspection sheet that they never came and fixed.

[OHlandlord]

Great. Your post explains much. The list they sent was in a timely manner, but they cannot charge you for all of this. You need to send a dispute letter to the LL/management/whoever is in charge of the damages. Just because they paid to have work done doesn't mean it was your responsibility to pay for the work. Some work, like carpet replacement and paint, needs to be done every few years just because of normal wear & tear. Other items, like screens that were missing or torn upon taking occupancy are their responsibility and should have been charged to the last tenants.

What you need to do is to put the list they sent into your computer and dispute each charge individually. First, dispute each item that was missing or broken when you moved in by noting next to the name of the item that "this was listed on initial move-in inspection sheet as being in this condition at that time." (They won't know that you lost your sheet, but try hard to find it!) They can charge you to clean anything you left dirty when you moved out. So charges for washing walls & woodwork, cleaning appliances, bathrooms, & kitchens should be OK as long as they charged a reasonable price based upon the number of hours work required. For those items just mark "agree with condition and cost".

But having lived in the unit for 3 & 1/2 years, they should have to be painting the unit anyways. Unless you put holes in the walls (which they could charge you to fix) they should not be charging you to paint. They can charge you to wash excessively dirty walls prior to painting, but not for the painting costs. Even if they could charge for painting, it should only be a small fraction of the cost since normal wear & tear of 3 & 1/2 years would have made the paint on those walls need renewed. (I & most LLs I know paint every 3 years and touch up in between. I don't charge a tenant for repainting if they stayed over 3 years.) Note next to this that "painting would normally be required after 3 & 1/2 years of normal wear & tear."

As for carpet, they need to charge only the depreciated value of that carpet based on its age. (Unfortunately, a verbal promise not to charge you is worthless - you should have gotten this in writing.) ****About how old do you think it was when you moved in?*** Please answer this so we can calculate the value of the carpet. They must charge only the portion of the cost of the carpet based on how much useful life should have been left in the carpet, and how many years they use to depreciate carpeting on their taxes. (The IRS allows you to use any number of years from 5 - 10 years on this tax schedule.)

For illustrative purposes only, I"ll assume the carpet was new at move-in (although I doubt it was.) The depreciation formula goes like this:
Step 1) # of years for depreciation - the age of the carpet = the remaining useful life of the carpet
Step 2) the remaining useful life of the carpet / # of years for depreciation x the cost of carpet = your share of its price
For a new carpet on a 5 year depreciation schedule:
5 - 3.5 = 1.5
1.5 / 5 x $5000 = $1500 your share after depreciation for normal wear & tear

Based on your input of the size of your unit:
1200 sq ft - 225 sq ft (kitchen) - 50 sq ft (2 small baths assuming 5"x5" ea.) = 925 sq ft of carpet which is 102.7 sq yds of carpet.
$5000 / 102.7 sq. yds = $48.68 per sq yd.
I don't know where you are from but that price is W-A-Y TOO HIGH! Anyone could remove all the carpet in the unit within 4 hours (even @ $15 per hour that is only $60.) So they are attempting to charge you full price for everything. You should owe much less than $5000 for it. Give me how old the carpet was (your best estimate) when you moved in. Do you know how long the last tenant stayed in your unit? (LLs normally don't replace carpet except when it is vacant so it was probably replaced just before that tenant moved in.) Then I can work out the exact figures for the carpet. Also, did you take any photos at move in, or soon after, that would show the condition of the carpet then? (Think back, child's birthday, a party, sometime?)

Give me the approximate age of the carpet and we'll go over the rest of the dispute letter.

Sir thank you again for your response. The carpet at move-in was I estimate to be at least 2 to 3 years old. The $5000+ amount is for labor for the carpet only, and they are charging labor of course for the rest of the work, also the letter stated that the cost of the carpet was forthcoming. I calculated the number of hours by the cost and they are supposedly paying between 22.50 and $25.00 per hour for cost of repairs of the unit, not the carpet. Now of course I haven't seen a list of what they have actually done. Now I have done some home remodeling and all of the prices are extremely high and I discussed it with the Manager. Of course with me being in the military and truthfully an honest and decent person, who did leave the place in bad condition, I didn't want to argue with someone who in a sense is wanting to put my family and career in jeapordy, especially when I am wanting to make amends. So I didn't push the issue. Unfortunately I stayed up until 3 oclock this morning looking through our pictures and files and could not find anything that showed the carpet. As you might tell, this is my fault, however it's causing me to have numerous sleepless nights.
I went to lowes and just calculated the costs to replace the items listed and for (10 gallons of premium wagner paint), blinds, misc(spackle, primer,(5 gallons ceiling paint), drop cloths, mineral spirits, rollers, brushes, extensions, including the appliances that I am replacing and I came up to about $1700 and that was buying 1 extra of everything above what I can figure that they would've used. When I mentioned this to the manager, of course I received a very expected response of, It doesn't matter, the bottom line is what we paid is what you owe. I haven't heard back as of yet, but she stated that she was going to call the VP and get there bottom dollar requirement and send it to me via email.
I hope I haven't put to much info in here. Again thank you so much, for giving me some advice.

[OHlandlord]

One other item I forgot to mention. Most courts would uphold that the cost of labor must be related to the specific task. An unskilled task should charge labor costs of just over minimum wage since you could hire anyone to do those tasks. A semi-skilled job would require a higher amount per hour, a skilled job, would cost the most per hour since a skilled worker demands more. So you should expect to be charged more per hour for painting the unit, than for someone taking out the trash or cleaning it. Costs should be equivalent to what you could hire someone to do that job. If I can hire a painter for $20 per hour, the management shouldn't be charging $30 an hour. If I can hire a cleaner for $8-10 an hour, they shouldn't charge you $20-25 per hour.

I don't get the $5000 for labor only on the carpet. To remove and install? Ridiculous. Anyone could remove it, labor should be just over minimum wage. All you have to do is cut it into pieces and pull it out, roll it up, and carry it to a dumpster. Absolutely no skill required! Installing is another thing, skill is required (but I know of no installer that charges $20 per hour!) Mine charges a few dollars per sq. yd. to install + extra for seaming and any tack strips/materials he uses. I could have all that carpet removed, reinstalled, and pay for new pad and carpet for less than $5000 for that space.

And you should pay little or nothing for repainting. You lived there 3 1/2 yrs.

Also, please note, that Lowe's is twice as expensive as Walmart or a discount store (Big Lots, Dollar General, etc.) for things like blinds, dropcloths, rollers, & brushes. I never buy these things at the home improvement places.

I had mentioned the cost of items would be higher at the local Ace Hardware than at Wal-Mart etc, but was told it didn't matter, that they pay what they are charged. I truthfully believe that they are trying to completely remodel this place, instead of fixing the damages, which I know would not take this long or cost this much. I asked the Legal Advisor for the duplex if they could fax me a copy of our pre inspection and was told that they couldn't find it. Very Convenient, considering that we had confirmed with the Park Manager that she had it and had given us (I realize now) empty promises, that we would not be charged for carpet, etc. We phoned her today after getting an email from the legal advisor and the park manager when asked about the inspection form, said that the legal advisor had picked it up with the rest of my file and admitted again that she told us what we had claimed, but will she tell her boss, or will they admit that she told them? I dont know. I had renters insurance as well and they are now working to help me on individual (Liability Claims), however whether I pay out of pocket for the whole thing or pay the difference in the paid insurance amount, I still don't believe that they are trying to just recover what I owe for damages I caused. I don't know if you could really say or not, but do you have any idea based on the dimensions I gave you, how much primer and paint would be necessary? They have sent me receipts for over 15 gallons of paint, over 5 gallons of primer and numerous rollers and brushes on several different dates.
Thank you.

[OHlandlord]

Figure one gallon of ceiling paint will usually paint 2 average sized rooms' ceilings. Figure one gallon of paint per average room, 2 gallons for a larger room (like the 15 x 15 kitchen). Figure the same in primer unless the walls were dark colored and they are charging them to off white (which is not your fault or cost unless you painted them that color without approval).

******What you really need to do right now is to put the list they sent into your computer and **dispute each charge individually**. Mark each item that was missing or broken when you moved in by marking it "missing at move in, should not be charged for". Agree with cleaning charges since you said you didn't do a good job on that. On painting mark it that it was "normal wear & tear, should be no charge". On carpet list that this is "not the depreciated value of the carpet that you must charge per law". Carpet that is 5.5 yrs old (the 3.5 yrs you lived there and probably 2 yrs old before you moved in) should be valued at 45% of it's original value. If it cost $5000 to replace, you "should only owe $1237.50" of that (approximately based on a 10 year depreciation schedule). I can work out the formula for you if you like.

They are trying to charge you full price for everything, WHICH IS ILLEGAL. It doesn't matter what it cost them to do the work. The idea is that some of the work would have been their responsibility even if you had left the place spotless because those items have AGED during your tenancy and cannot possibly be new now. They would not be worth their new price no matter what. They cannot charge you with the new price.

Michael, it seems like you are just giving in to these people. What they are doing is not right. As a landlord for 15 years, I know that you cannot charge people the new price for these items. There are certain types of items that "age" and those that don't. A pane of glass doesn't age. It's the same today (new) as it is in 5 years. But a new carpet today is not the same as one bought 5 years ago. Wear & tear happen to carpets. Anything that is subjected to wear & tear must be depreciated. You must charge the depreciated value of these items. If you were to get an attorney and explain what I am saying, he can tell you that they cannot charge you these prices. Just because that is what they paid for them doesn't mean that is what you owe. I urge you to write this dispute letter, send it to the LL by certified mail, return receipt requested, and keep a copy. If it comes down to court, go and explain this to the judge just as I have explained it to you. You will end up owing much less than they claim. They are trying to charge you the price of rehabbing the whole unit.

I am taking your advice and have disputed, agreed with or marked should be depreciated value. I am waiting now, because they emailed me today saying that they haven't yet completed the work and don't know what the total will be. They mentioned that they would send me a settlement price, but after talking to them she said that they would not come down much.
I very much appreciate all of your help and the help that I have seen you give to others on this site.
One last question? I was thinking exactly what you just said last night about it being illegal to charge a non-depreciated price. I searched for hours trying to find state statutes and laws, but could not find anything except for Landlord and Tenants hand books. Do you know where I can find any literature that would discusse actual laws and codes?
Thank you again.

[OHlandlord]

Charging the depreciated price is usally addressed in state statutes by stating that they can only charge for damage but not for NORMAL WEAR & TEAR. The normal wear & tear is the depreciation of the value on that carpet. Carpet will not stay pristine with only the normal walking on of careful people. It still gets worn, faded from the sun, and shows wear. That is the normal wear & tear of any item that is used. That is why depreciated values must be used for al items that can show wear. It is comon law. Look in state statutes for wear & tear or google it for more info.

On a common sense level, no judge will allow them to get the value of a new carpet to replace one that was over 5 years old. If you wrecked nad totalled your car, would the auto insurance pay you the new value for a car that was 5 years old? Of course not. They'd give you the blue book (depreciated) value of it. Same principle applies here. The management is going to be in for a rude awakening if you take them to small claims court over this. Stand firm on this. You are in the right as far as depreciated value.