As happened this month in Phoenix, AZ USA

We recently moved from a rental to a house, though we had experienced some problems in the moving transition, and along with the stress of moving, our health and the summer weather this didn't make such better. We had lived in this rental for a number of years with a good relationship with the former landlord until the property was sold to one of their children in spring, who of course as the new landlord had plans for the place and was eager to get started - too eager, to add:

Here is a summary of the situation:


Last month of renting was July of 2007.

Owner started work on property days prior to last (7/31/07), including entering shed on 7/30/07 by removing door/creating new entrance/other modifications.

Owner said that we could even stay till/thru Sunday (8/4/07) to finish moving items.

Items never picked up/delivered to new residence:

2 ladders- one long, one short, both of wood construction.

At least one stand-up oscillator fan, all white plastic/metal construction.

1 hose w/nozzle - in back yard.

1 computer - desktop, compaq presario.

1 plastic cookware/mixing bowl w/foreign coins.

1 lock w/cable - Master, black plastic color.

1 gas butane lighter,black plastic color.

1 small/pocket brazing/welding torch, blue metal color.

Fair amount of items in one uncleared closet include last items plus electronic, computer(diskettes, etc.), books, and other misc. (had one bag of clothing, etc. from another family member) items.


The new landlord's wife left two recorded messages, one of them mentioning that the curbside can be checked for items that were thrown out (though not everything was: the new landlord had said that certain items would be given to Goodwill, yet there was no means of checking this since when I last visited the inside of the place on 8/3/07 the couple came over later and told me that I couldn't be here for safety/other reasons, and I had the give the keys to both sides, thus afterwards there was no way for us to exactly know what items were given to Goodwill and what items they have kept inside the property.) which I found out by first going there to check the curbside on 8/10/07 that a good amount thrown out was practically all from the kitchen - this should not have happened.

We haven't taken any legal action and thought to post the former in order to seek advice on this, plus since there are laws such as the landord/tenant act plus that grounds should exist for at least a small claims court filing on the list of items never brought to the new property, and please let me know if any clarifications or further background information is needed, as especially in the summary I tried to cover as best as possible what is most important.

[OHlandlord]

I'm not sure I understand your post. Your last day was supposed to be the 31st. You say the LL (verbally?) gave you till the 4th. Did you get his agreement in writing? Do you have proof of it? Then you say the LL enered the shed one day early. If your last day was supposed to be the 31st, shouldn't you have had most of the things in the shed out already? Were all these items listed still in the shed when they entered it?

You say these items were never picked up or delivered to your new residence. Did you not remove these by the 31st? Did the moving company not pack and move these? I don't quite understand how you failed to get these items. Did you leave these items at the unit after the 31st? When did you surrender the keys? Were they still at the unit after you turned in the keys?

Please provide me some more info and clarification on this so I can understand what happened, then I'll be happy to go through any remedies available to you.

Thank you for your caring post, plus this morning I posted a response in another forum, and here's the link for your reference:


http://forums.phoenix.craigslist.org/?act=Q&ID=71240231


The post there had to be cut down due to a 2400 character limit, thus looking different near and at the end, and this is why I made a summary instead of providing more details at this and other similar forums (I posted to a total of 4 legal-helping forums; let me know if you like to see their links.)

To clarify further, we had rented at the former location for over 31 years (since April of 1976) and had a good relationship with the former owner/landlord (the stepmother of the son who is the present owner/landlord now) and our last month of rent was in July of 2007, and the son helped us in the moving transition, as he said he would do so (he said he likes to help others or would like to help, though especially at the end the situation became kind of awkward or "not complete" to say, and nothing was down in writing: all was verbal, and we had mentioned the "problems" that we had gone thru with his adopted parents.) He had done work on the property days prior to us even renting the Budget Rental Truck to haul our items, and he even helped drive the truck to the house and that we purchased on one occasion. On about the second week to the last of July he had removed the door to the shed of our entrance, had an employee (from one of his companies he co-owns that were helping out to modify the shed first) cut with a saw a side to that shed part where we had our items (fortunately no items were damaged, though such could have been!), which made the situation to removing the items from the shed somewhat halted/difficult to work with.

We didn't have the keys to the new property until mid-July, which also added to the "delay" in moving there, and my two sisters, father, and myself have health problems (both of my sisters are on disability - SSI, my father is retired, on Social Security, and is an invaild: his legs are crippled and uses a wheelchair, and I had, as I mentioned in that link I gave, suffered from a leg problem, yet I had done much of the "carting" especially in clearing both the carport and the front yard to bring our items inside the house, etc., to add), which complicated the moving transition.

The keys were turned in on 8/3/07, the last day I was on the property: I arrived by bus at about 2:30 pm, and the couple came over about 2 1/2 hours later to tell me that I couldn't stay here, though we had remaining items especailly in the kitchen cabinets and two bedrooms (with one closet in one of the bedrooms not emptied), plus I gave him the $150.00 that my sister gave me on that same day in the morning before leaving by bus to the place to give to him as he mentioned to my sister to help get some help to move the rest the items, yet he told me that this money would be used for "removal" of what's left, so I think there was some confusion going on with this like before, though he had also said to me that if my sister contacts him to work out this matter that he would return the $150.00 to her, yet she never contacted him after I told her what happened upon returning back: he even told me top try to reach her by phone afterwards, though the asnswering machine was on and was unable to reach her on that day (his wife took down the phone numbers I gave so that she she could try) so this altogether made such a "strange" experience at my end to help my family with moving the remaining items.

I could provide more details, though I need to break for now so as to let my sister use the phone line; please let me know if the former has helped further in clarifying.

[OHlandlord]

Again, I must ask: You say the LL (verbally?) gave you till the 4th. Did you get his agreement ***in writing?*** If not, there is no way to prove that he extended your time to move these items.

The LL was helping you move some things, but it really isn't his responsibility to do this. It was your responsibility to have them all out. (Disability or not) Even if you did have until the 4th to get them out, there is an awful lot of stuff listed here. Since you came to the unit by bus the last day (on the 3rd), how were you planning to get all of these things out of there on that day? You certainly couldn't have taken them on the bus.

They were making alterations to the shed, and you say that complicated moving items out of it. However, those contractors/workers weren't there all evening. They probably stopped work every day by no later than 5p.m. You had each evening and probably the weekends to pack and move the shed's stuff. You probably should have hired someone to help you move, especially since you should have not been moving those heavy things yourself. And if need be, you could have rented a storage place for a month to make the move easier. It is your responsibility to get your belongings out, not the LLs. But it does look as if he was trying to help you as much as he could.

When you returned on the 3rd, the LL told you that you couldn't stay there. Your rent was not paid for that month, your lease was expired. You could have insisted, but the LL could have filed an eviction against you. You did not get an extension in writing I'm betting. I don't understand why you gave the LL money when you left??? He told you to get *some help* to remove the rest of your belongings. Obviously, he wanted all your things out of the unit. You could have used that money to hire a mover to get these things out. He even told you that he would give you that money back if your sister would only contact him, but she never did. Why not??? He even tried to get you to contact her for him so he could return her money. So no one could reach her and everyone only got her machine (for days???). I don't understand.

Did you return the keys to him when you left on the 3rd? If so, you gave him back possession of the unit. That may signify that you no longer wanted the stuff left in the unit. He tried to make sure you got your belongings out of there -helped you move some of them himself, drove the rental truck for you, asked you to get help to remove your things, even offered to return the extra money that your sister paid if she would only request it. He can't move all your belongings for you. As I said, that was your responsibility to be out by the end of the month. After you returned the keys, they had to clear out the unit. I often give usable items to Goodwill or another charity, other items I toss for pick-up. It appears this is what they did when you failed to remove these things. She even called you tell you when they placed them out so you could come back another time to get your items. Unless I am missing something here, I don't see what the LL did or didn't do that was incorrect. Can you clarify anything that I don't understand?

"Again, I must ask: You say the LL (verbally?) gave you till the 4th. Did you get his agreement ***in writing?*** If not, there is no way to prove that he extended your time to move these items."


This was mentioned in my second post, in the paragraph that begins with "To clarify further", where I said the following: "and nothing was down in writing: all was verbal", as my sister was the one who was told this, yet she didn't get any written agreement from such a discussion between him and her - or anything else important in working with the moving situation or transition that we had difficulties with, especially in terms to talking (or working) with him. He said he likes to help others, didn't mind helping us even when he was working on the property (which he should have done AFTER we cleared out OK, yet that didn't come thru right.), and he even said that he wasn't even supposed to be working like on that shed first back in mid-July. He had some "balanicing" on what he wanted to do/didn't want to do with the property: it was his first time doing this on this property, you have to remember, and trying to balance that with wo companies he co-owns and using his men from at least one of them to modify the shed and then working with us must have became, in a sense, "heady" for him, to say. Yet this still give him a right to pitch out items like in the kitchen cabinets as if they were trash to the curbside for bulk-trash collection, and then throw the ripped-out cabinets on top of it: this is what I first saw when I arrived at that curb on 8/10/07 plus tried to recover/carry as many items as I could from this pile by bicycle on the return trip using the bus (and I made a second recover/carry effort on 8/13/07: the curb situation was the same), and I NEVER saw any of items that I had listed in my post such as the ladders in that pile: I know that he didn't throw them out, as he one day even used the short ladder for some work: this laddler was in the living room area (was there on that friday that I last entered the property: the long ladder was in the back yard, thrown on the ground between the chinaberry tree and the duplex wall near where one of the bedroom windows were: was before leaning on the left side of the Crosley clothes washer that was left there too on the back porch), his wife never answered that question from the last phone call she made, nor did he call about this either, i.e., on any of those item that I listed in my first post, other than saying that he would donate to Goodwill, though what items were donated AND what items were not is THE question, plus the fact that so many good items we had in those kitchen cabinets (boxed teas, cups, dishware, etc.) does not make sense or square OK with what he said about donating.


"She even called you tell you when they placed them out so you could come back another time to get your items."


This is already answered in the previous answer I gave, plus the fact (to repeat) that these items missing or unaccounted were NOT in that pile at the curbside. Why should they be? As I mentioned already he did use one of the ladders, and I am certain that he kept/made use of any other items he wanted to keep/use. (He even told me once that I had a lot of good items!)


I and the rest of my family are upset with how the moving situation or transition has ended in terms of the way in which everything was handled. And I understand the position, responsibilities that he has as a owner/landlord, yet he was supposed to work with us as per his understanding that he knew thru his adopted parents who sold him the properties! And, to further state on all of this, a need to go beyond some kind of a owner/landlord mindset and understand like a human being what the "other party" is going thru, though partially at least this was not the case from what I unfortunately saw, being a witness to the many "events" that went by in working with him AND with my family so as to complete a careful AND satisfactory move from one place to another.

[OHlandlord]

Please understand, I am not trying to look at this through a LL mindset, but through a legal one. With nothing in writing, you had no approval to overstay past the 31st. *WHEN you gave him back the keys on the 3rd*, you relinquished possession of the place to him. When you do that, you *give up any ownership rights* to whatever was left in the place. *Once he recieves possession*, he has the legal right to clean out his property and get it ready to rent again. What he does with the property doesn't matter once you give up the keys. This is why I asked if you turned in the keys to him. It makes a legal standing one way or the other. *Had you NOT turned over keys*, taking your possessions would have been illegal. This could have been considered a self-help eviction, and you may have been able to recover the value of your possessions. This is the most important point per law.

There is also the idea that you thought you would find all your possessions at the curb. Even if she/he had thrown them all out, instead of donating them to Goodwill/Salvation Army, other charity, do you think they would remain there? Other people walking by will pick them up. Anything metal (welding torch, hose nozzle, fan, electronics, and possibly computer) will be picked up by scrappers to recycle. Cookware & dishes disappear quickly, as does any type of furniture. Anything that looks remotely useful will vanish within the hour. (This happens every time I place stuff curbside after an eviction. Neighbors pick through it as soon as I leave.) Something like a ladder wouldn't last 5 minutes there. Once I even put out a broken chest of drawers. It was gone in 15 minutes. I hate to say it but people are like vulchers. They'll pick a place clean!

On a personal note, you sound upset that the LL didn't work with you more. Legally, he was under no obligation to lift a finger to help you. All he had to do was follow the law. It would be nice if people were flexible and helpful all the time. But then we'd have no need of laws at all, would we? You just can't expect people to go out of their way to be helpful. The world is not the same place it used to be. I'm sorry that you lost some of your items through this move. But according to law, you relinquished those possessions by turning in keys and giving up possession of the place. I wish I had better answers for you.

I agree with advice here. And I faced a very similar situation only recently.

(Note: The last post was placed by another unregistrant, and no problem to do, though one could tell.)


I know from what your undertanding and help here on the aftermath of our move that you mean OK thru everything posted - and also know that you don't "worry" or misconstrue on what was stated as positions: we, due to the loss of a certain number of remaining items that are ours plus that we were in progress to move to the new residence led to being in justified ways (as you know we are human on) upset over; and know about the "automatic" turning over of property via giving the keys as an outcome, though as far as I know may not have any "bearing" under the laws in this state, since in mid-August I talked to a City Of Phoenix information/police officer regarding what happened, and she told me that a landlord (she first said 30 days, then later afterwards 21-28 days, ttrying to recall the period) has to hold such in a safe storage place either on the premises or off-site until the former rental party picks them up; they may to reimburse the rental costs if stored at an especially off-site place that you pay for, and also she did mention that you may need to file at the small claims court for those unaccounted-for items, though with all the mixed feelings and "confoundings" that we had gone thru with this owner/landlord that such may not go thru OK or may create only further problems, since I mentioned before that he wanted to help AND went out of his way so much as to do so, regardless of how incomplete, awkward or at the "end" such was done, and to state as to note proper credit to him in as how I expressed this in my writing here for such - that's what's good, plus since my sister should have kept the communications going instead of dropping them prematurely, among other issues.


"There is also the idea that you thought you would find all your possessions at the curb."


Never thought even once that such was the case, especially after those two last phone calls that his wife had given about any items thrown to the curb, as she mentioned also in both phone calls that if an attempt is made to check the inside that such would be considered an act of trespassing and that they would call the police; this is why I also reasoned that they had kept a certain amount of those items, especially important ones like those ladders, which my father bought yearsago, or the bag of mostly clothing and misc. items that my other sister had in that closet among other items inside that we never had a chance to clear. I had more doubts than not, especially with considering how he "closed" in handling everything at the end, his personal remarks, and so on. In the first place I would not go breaking trespassing laws or be intrusive, and goes against my nature in citizen-reasoning terms; you need their permission before entering a property legally.


I noted these following over the weekend; hope you find them OK in checking:


The AZ Residential Landlord and Tenant Act:

Arizona Revised Statutes Title 33, Chapter 10
Updated with laws effective September 21, 2006

http://www.azsos.gov/public_services...ord_Tenant_Act

or in .pdf:

http://www.azsos.gov/public_services...esidential.pdf


And thought that these might be of interest:


Want to recycle? Bring Your ID: (9/2/07)

http://www.azcentral.com/community/m...cycle0905.html

(Earlier Title (9/1/07): Selling Metal? Better Bring ID

- Sub caption: Recycling centers brace for a law aimed at scrap-metal thieves that starts today requiring ID, fingerprint for over $25.)

http://www.azcentral.com/community/p...pdate0902.html

- Phoenix hits 32 days of temps over 110 degrees
- This was one of the reasons that hampered our move/caused my extreme fatigue/beat effect
- My leg was getting better during/about the latter half of the moving situation or transition, though about a week and a half ago has gradually (though partially) came back with the painful and sore effects


Enjoy, and looking forward to your next post!

Maybe you should just go to small claims and argue your case out?

Guest visitor

[OHlandlord]

I did read through part of the AZ LL-Tenant act again. I see the 21 day notice the police officer spoke of.

"The landlord shall hold the tenant's personal property for a period of twenty-one days beginning on the first day after a writ of restitution or writ of execution is executed as prescribed in section 12-1181. The landlord shall use reasonable care in moving and holding the tenant's property and may store the tenant's property in an unoccupied dwelling unit owned by the landlord, the unoccupied dwelling unit formerly occupied by the tenant or off the premises if an unoccupied dwelling unit is not available. If the tenant's former dwelling unit is used to store the property, the landlord may change the locks on that unit at the landlord's discretion. The landlord shall prepare an inventory and promptly notify the tenant of the location and cost of storage of the personal property by sending a notice by certified mail, return receipt requested, addressed to the tenant's last known address and to any of the tenant's alternative addresses known to the landlord. To reclaim the personal property, the tenant shall pay the landlord only for the cost of removal and storage for the time the property is held by the landlord."

Unfortunately it does not appear to apply to you. This section says he must hold the property for 21 days after a a writ of restitution (judge's order restoring possession of the property from the tenant to the LL) or writ of execution (judge ordering the execution of the eviction of the tenant) is executed through the eviction statute (I assume from the above references that this is 12-1181). You were not evicted, but turned over possession willingly by turning in the key thus giving up possession of the items.

Following this chapter, there is a section on abandonment of property, which states basically the same thing. It also does not seem to apply. Abandonment is used when a tenant disappears from a property without notice and the LL must legally declare the property abandoned to reclaim possession of it. The LL did not have to declare it abandoned since you gave him possession in returning the keys. I'm sorry,but police officers only enforce CRIMINAL laws and frequently have no idea about CIVIL laws such as this. It is out of their realm of professional knowledge. They shouldn't give out their opinions on such, since people mistake their uniform as a form of authority on such matters, when they have none. (They are neither judges nor attorneys.) I believe the officer is wrong. You could file in court though and see if I am reading and interpretting this law incorrectly. I am not above saying that it is quite possible for me to be wrong. There is a possibility that you could win the depreciated value of some of your belongings. How much they are worth, once depreciated for the number of years you have owned them, I couldn't say.

I believe the LL or his wife only warned you about entering the house (as in trespassing) because this happens all too frequently by ex-tenants (and others). (See next paragraph) Not every citizen is as law abiding as you. Frequently they return to the vacant premises to break in. And upon finding their things have been removed, they proceed to trash the house. This has happened many, many times to LLs. As such, we become worried about it happening to our properties. I am lucky that this has not happened to me, but it has happened to many LL friends of mine. Ex-tenants (and others) have caused thousands of dollars in damages. Thus, we warn tenants not to return. I doubt it was indicitive of any of your belongings being "hidden" in the house. I really doubt that they kept your clothing and personal items. I'm sure these things were given to a charity. They have no use for them. (The ladders may be another story.)

Recycling programs are going to IDs everywhere. People are breaking into vacant houses (another reason to warn you against trespassing) and stealing every copper pipe and wire in the walls. They are causing tons of damages to houses in the process of ripping open the walls and yanking these out. They are stealing aluminum siding off houses, the A/C compressor units outside (look how many of them you now see in cages), spouting and railings, even patio furniture to sell for scrap. As such, to limit the thefts for this, recycling centers now ask for ID.

My brother is the computer tech guy that the local places call to download & burn the CD video of these theives from the recyling centers when they get the call from the police dept. of a particular theft. (Yes, they also do video of people selling this stuff too.) He turns the CD over to the police to ID the theives. This has gotten much worse over the last few years, but it doesn't stop the junkers from going around and picking up every piece of metal they can find from the trash. As long as the items are not stolen and no one reports them as such, they are free to recycle this as much as they want.

I'm sorry your leg is now acting up again. I know just how hot it can get in Phoenix. I have been to your city (a few years back) and thought it was a lovely place. No snow, but still a nice place. (Yes, I do actually like the change of seasons and the snow, falling leaves, etc,.) I wish I could tell you that you were entitled to everything back. I hope that your leg, and everything else in your life, improves from here on. Good luck.