Marriage between Uncle and Niece

This is a discussion on Marriage between Uncle and Niece within the Other Family Law Matters forum, part of the FAMILY LAW, DIVORCE, CUSTODY category; Originally Posted by Unregistered Since this is a legal forum where the advice should be of a legal standpoint, and ...

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Old Jun 8th, 2011, 03:40 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
Since this is a legal forum where the advice should be of a legal standpoint, and not a moral one, you are unlikely to be able to get married. This has to do with inbreeding and the possibility of having severely unhealthy, deformed children, either mentally or physically, or both....
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You continue to miss the point. Who is harmed by incestual relationships? The children born into them......Incest marriage will produce (this is science here, and not "lunacy" or conjecture) deformed, impaired, unhealthy babies. From their brains to their outward appearance, they are affected. ...
i understand this is a legal forum. that being said, laws / the legal system are a human social construct. we choose to abide by the laws that govern our location, we do not choose the laws of nature.

the biggest issue with the marriage of uncle and niece is that whether your local laws allow the marriage there are biological consequences to the actions if children are born to the marriage. biology doesn't care about man made laws or religious laws.

people of close genetics (this includes uncle/niece pairings) are more likely to have a similar genotype and carry recessive genes of the same diseases & disorders. most of the time, people only "carry" disease traits because they are often recessive traits, and do not show up physically in an individual. when a child is conceived from parents who both carry the same harmful recessive gene (often when they have similar genotypes / are related), then that child is more likely to naturally abort, be stillborn, or be born with the severe form of the disease.

there was a poster that mentioned modern science & medicine allowing parents to know beforehand with greater probability if there are complications with the child before birth. those screenings are only for a few select issues, not the whole gamut of diseases & disorders that can be passed on genetically.

nature's laws overrides all others in this situation.

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...I recently found out that my mother's parents were uncle and niece (fully -- 2 brothers came over the pond from eastern europe around 1900, One of the brothers had a daughter and the other brother married her)...She was completely disabled by MS by the tine she was 50 and died at 60. She and my father had three kids. The oldest and the youngest (me) are still alive. We have Crohn's disease w/resultant ileostomies. Our brother was diagnosed w/MS by the time he was 20 and died @44....None of my mother's 6 siblings or their offspring had any outstanding medical conditions....

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I, like so many others on this forum, am in love with my half-niece (my half-sister's daughter). We have loved each other for years but only recently consumated our relationship. Researching the Internet, it seems Australia or Canada may be the only 2 English speaking countries where we could legally marry. Since we are not Jewish nor tribal in any way, the state laws in the U.S. are muddled and confusing. With links provided by Cousin Marriage Resources, and this forum, I have been able to glean the following:
  • Any state which does not specify half-blood as permitted, should be assumed as not permitted, since you can't legally assume something is permitted.
  • Many states use degrees of consanguinity or kindred (kinship), which usually negates any chance of being permitted as these go as far as 4th degree.
  • Many states allow first cousin marriages, and North Carolina seems to be one of them. Their definition would also include half-uncles and half-nieces, but they are not called out in the definition:
...
i appreciate the clarity of your post! very informative, good luck.
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Old Jun 9th, 2011, 03:02 PM   #82
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Confused re: Marriage between Uncle and Niece

YES I AM IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH MY DADS HALF BROTHER FOR ABOUT 2 YEARS WE ARE INTIMATE BUT I CANNOT HAVE KIDS AND SO THATS WHY WE ARE INTIMATE IF I COULD I WOULD NOT BE BUT THERE IS NOTHING SICK OR INMORAL ABOUT IT I LOVE HIM AND WE PLAN TO BE TOGETHER FOREVER SO IF OTHERS ARE LIKE ME OUT THERE DONT BE ASHAME OF WHAT OR WHO YOU LOVE BUT ALSO TAKE IN CONSIDERATION WHO YOU WILL HURT OTHER THAN YOURSELVES AND JUST KEEP LOVING EACH OTHER.
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Old Jun 13th, 2011, 07:16 PM   #83
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its my first time to encounter a scenario like uncle and niece what to be married. never heard that before. i just can't imagine cause you blood lies on her blood. i cant take that kind of situation.
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Old Jun 30th, 2011, 10:51 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Unregistered:
The bible is not the law.

Further, the bible was written by man. Not by some supernatural "god". It has been translated and interpreted millions of times over and is not a reliable source for any actual logic based decision.

Please stop using the bible to wax legalities.
Please stop misrepresenting the truth in effort to undermine peoples cultural and/or religious beliefs.

Part of the Bible is law - Mosaic Law. It pre-dates the Common Law. The original scripture remains, as well as subsequent translations. Christians do not claim that the Bible was written by God, only that it was inspired by him. And, mind you, even if it were not, all law is man-made. All law has been translated and remains subject to interpretation. And in all cases, interpretation of the law changes with time. One law is as "reliable" as the other. However, not ever law is "applicable" or enforceable. That all depends on where you happen to live.
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Old Jul 1st, 2011, 09:36 AM   #85
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Please stop misrepresenting the truth in effort to undermine peoples cultural and/or religious beliefs.

Part of the Bible is law - Mosaic Law. It pre-dates the Common Law. The original scripture remains, as well as subsequent translations. Christians do not claim that the Bible was written by God, only that it was inspired by him. And, mind you, even if it were not, all law is man-made. All law has been translated and remains subject to interpretation. And in all cases, interpretation of the law changes with time. One law is as "reliable" as the other. However, not ever law is "applicable" or enforceable. That all depends on where you happen to live.
Prove that someone is "misrepresenting the truth". Whose truth? Yours? Like it or not you cannot prove "your truth".

Interpretation is key here. You interpret the bible one way, 10,000 others (or more) will interpret it entirely different.

The bible is all about interpretation. And for religious fanatics/zealots, it's grossly misinterpreted.

Please stop misrepresenting logic and facts in an effort to insult the intelligence of people who actually have the ability and capacity to think for themselves.

The fact remains that this is not a religious forum. It's a legal advice forum and there is a very wide chasm between the two.
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Old Jul 27th, 2011, 12:37 AM   #86
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just wantd to add my 2 cents worth. there are alot of people here in uncle-niece relationships or desirig to be. i am in one with my half niece and we have been together for over 5 years. we live in the USA. we are genetically the same as first cousins which is legal in our state and many other states yet half uncle-half niece marriage is illegal. why??? it is not b/c of birth defects. if that were why then first cousin marriages would be illegal AND women over 40 would not be allowed to have children because their risk for birth defects is the same as for first cousins. yes u have to consider two ppl who carry a gene for a birth defect might have affected children but tat is true for unrelated people too. the difference is you dont know unless you dig into the persons history. should it be illegal for two unrelated people to marry if they both carry genes for a horrible disease??? no...

i understand the frustration ppl are going thru with the laws and having to hide it. there is nothing immoral about marrying your first cousin or uncle or niece. read leviticus 18, it does not forbid uncle-niece relationships. it amazes me two men can get "married" but a half uncle and half niece can not. i'm sure if the laws were changed 1000's of people would come out of the woodwork and admit their uncle-niece relationships. i want to see more ppl speak up and tell their stories to get attention on tihs isuee.
I have the same promble i'm in love with my half uncle. we already have a beautfull little boy and i'm trying to find out if we can get introuble because of that. my mother is his sister. this really sucks i have not felt like this ever
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Old Aug 14th, 2011, 09:50 PM   #87
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Can somebody tell me why ??? There isn't just one person in the whole world to marry....if so no one would meet their designated other. I don't understand in this day why such closely related people want to get married, when we have such a large number of potential mates to broaden our gene pool.

Yes, if we all look back in our family trees we can find cousin marriages,etc.....back when our ancestors travelled by horse and buggy and perhaps didn't go more than 10 miles beyond their birthplace in their whole lives. My own great-grandparents who got married in 1842 were uncle - half niece (at least on paper - maybe their families were aware of other biological facts.) There is a high rate of ADHD, Aspergers Syndrome and obcessive/compulsive disorder in their descendants.......things which used to be called "high strung".

There is also the issue that in clannish cultures where this practice is sanctioned, it has been going on for perhaps thousands of years. This has resulted in a very small gene pool where recessive traits for disabling conditions can emerge.

As a retired teacher of English to adult immigrants, I have witnessed a range of disabilities in children from several continents - the only common factor being a history of closely related parents. Often the parents are in denial about the cause, even when informed by doctors. I do remember one clan leader, however, when informed of why so many of his grandchildren had deformed legs, decreed there were to be no more cousin marriages.

Genetics trumps any law ... or religious dogma. I rest my case !
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Old Aug 14th, 2011, 10:03 PM   #88
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P.S. to # 87:

Of course, if one of the partners has a sterilization operation it would be a different story.....hopefully vasectomy, a much less invasive procedure than female tubal ligation.
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Old Aug 17th, 2011, 11:59 AM   #89
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Any form of incest is DISGUSTING. The father of my children had sex with his first cousin and his brother had sex with his niece (his sisters daughter). I HOPE THESE PEOPLE ROT IN HELL. YOU ARE SICK INDIVIDUALS AND NEED SERIOUS HELP!!!!
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Old Sep 2nd, 2011, 08:45 AM   #90
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51‑3. Want of capacity; void and voidable marriages.
All marriages between any two persons nearer of kin than first cousins, or between double first cousins, shall be void.
51‑4. Prohibited degrees of kinship.

When the degree of kinship is estimated with a view to ascertain the right of kinspeople to marry, the half‑blood shall be counted as the whole‑blood: Provided, that nothing herein contained shall be so construed as to invalidate any marriage heretofore contracted in case where by counting the half‑blood as the whole‑blood the persons contracting such marriage would be nearer of kin than first cousins; but in every such case the kinship shall be ascertained by counting relations of the half‑blood as being only half so near kin as those of the same degree of the whole‑blood
GS_51-4

CAN ANYBODY HERE UNDERSTAND THAT ???
It means half-uncle/niece relationships are not allowed. Clause by clause translation:
a) Can't be closer than first-cousins (aka 1/8th related)
b) Half-blood is counted as full-blood when working out kinship, (so half-uncle = uncle = 1/4 relation = illegal) unless
c) The couple was already married when this law came into effect & counting halves as fulls means they'd be seen as closer than 1/8th related ... in which case, those already married couples get to
d) count half-bloods as half-related. (So if you were already a married half-uncle/niece couple, your marriage wasn't invalidated.)
"Heretofor contracted" is a little vague though. It might only provide leeway for relationships already existing when the law was enacted ... but I'd guess that it'd also be okay to live in the state (as married half-uncle/niece) if you were married elsewhere and then moved to the state. Can't be 100% sure on that one.




Quote:
- Pennsylvania is another state with confusing information:

23 Pa.C.S.A. 1304 Restrictions on issuance of license:
(e) Marriage to relatives.--No marriage license may be issued to applicants within the prohibited degrees of consanguinity which are as follows:
A man may not marry the sister of his father.
A man may not marry the sister of his mother.
A woman may not marry the brother of her father.
A woman may not marry the brother of her mother.

SO A MAN OR A WOMAN CAN MARRY THEIR NIECE/NEPHEW, BUT CANNOT MARRY THEIR UNCLE/AUNT ???
You don't need all 8 "may not" rules. If a woman can't marry the brother of her father/mother, then she can't marry her uncle. If a niece can't marry her uncle, then you can't have a niece/uncle marriage. You don't need to phrase it from the uncle's point of view too. If (for a random example) humans can't marry cars ... then there's no need to also specify cars can't marry humans: where would a car find a human allowed marry them?

Quote:
4302. Incest
A person is guilty of incest, a felony of the second degree, if that person knowingly marries or cohabits or has sexual intercourse with an ancestor or descendant, a brother or sister of the whole or half blood or an uncle, aunt, nephew or niece of the whole blood. The relationships referred to in this section include blood relationships without regard to legitimacy, and relationship of parent and child by adoption.

SO, IT'S NOT PUNISHABLE TO MARRY AN UNCLE, AUNT, NEPHEW OR NIECE ???
Did you miss a word? I read it as: it's not punishable to marry a HALF-BLOOD uncle, aunt, nephew or niece. But you can't marry a WHOLE-BLOOD uncle, aunt, nephew or niece. (I'm going to assume that's what you meant.)
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