A Great Contact If You Plan To Do Biz in China...

[China Chick]

I read all the horror stories here and elsewhere about people getting scammed in China. I too have met about 2 dozen people who were ripped either on-line or with Chinese Export companies. But I have to tell you, if you take your time and do a little checking, you can cover your ass pretty good. I lived in China for 5 years and worked for the British Counsil. My husband imports on a daily basis with 9 different Chinese export companies. Neither one of us did ANY business with ANY Chinese company until we checked the black list at the China Trade Commission, a group of Canadians and American expats who have been investigatng Chines companies since 1996. Their web site is not fancy but they do a professional job of exposing the many scams:

www.ChinaTradeCommission.org

Not only can they identify the scammers for you, but they can also introduce you to legit people who have honorable reputations and no complaints and law suits. They do professional due diligence for MNCs, the M&A crowd, and small businesses like ours.

And when you do have a dispute or some *sshole who doesn't want to pay their invoice, these guys also do great on collections and arbitration. If you Google them you will find more info but here are a few links I found in the last 5 minutes.

China Trade Commmission - China Debt Collection No Longer Mission Impossible - Pay Up Or Lose Face - China Trade Commission

Far Away Foreign Cheaters Exposed On International Black List By China Trade Commission | PRLog

China Trade Commission - Cheated In China? The China Trade Commission Can Help You With International Black List

Don't fall for the invitation to come to China to sign some huge contract and requests for "gifts" and don't let anyone rush you with some bogus "deadline" for price increases. Its all BS. Honest Chinese companies will allow you 10-30 days to conduct due diligence.

One last thing... Contracts in China mean squat, because unless you are a MNC like Microsoft, or Procter & Gamble, you will never prevail against a local Chinese in most Chinese courts. Evidence and Testimony mean nothing when the judge is paid off nder the table. Don't pay a dime just because you signed an official and "legally-binding" contract. Pay only upon delivery or F.O.B. if you have an inspector in China to inspect the goods as they are loaded. Shipping defective, broken, and the wrong goods are quite commo, knowing a buyer's only recourse is a futile law suit. Use the CTC and you probably won't have to worry about crap like this.

[Due Diligence]

If you're going to check out "China Trade Commission" or CTC really check them out well, because they appear to be very suspicious. The domains were registered in July 9, 2011 by a Canadian Investment firm though they claim to have been created in 1996 and imply that they are a government agency. Their domain was apparently suspended for copyright infringement and the pictures of their staff are apparently phony. Outside of their own free press releases which are extensive and unverifiable -- any one can put out a free press release and say whatever they want to do -- there is no evidence that they have done any of the many things they claim to have done. When you consider their claims, you would think that there would be some mention of them over the 10 years the internet has been around put there is nothing but some children's shows. I suggest that you read: China Trade Commission is a Scam (fraudwatchers.org) before you pay them for any services.

[Fred The Fed]

I think someone is trying very hard to smear the good decent people at China Trade Commission who I have known personally for a few years already. Kevin, Kirby, and Shorty all do great investigative work and I am not the only who said so. I suggest you refer to the comments of these people who unfortunately were censored from the fraudwatcher forum you mention...

scams - View Single Post - List of Scam Websites

scams - View Single Post - List of Scam Websites

scams - View Single Post - List of Scam Websites

scams - View Single Post - List of Scam Websites

scams - View Single Post - List of Scam Websites

scams - View Single Post - List of Scam Websites

scams - View Single Post - List of Scam Websites

scams - View Single Post - List of Scam Websites


Pay extra attention to the 2 cases Scam Patrol outlines in their comments. They confirm working with the CTC back in 2007 on two cases that were quite large - and successful busts. I think people who have to censor out opposing viewpoints or "inconvenient arguments" should move to North Korea. I also suggest you read this article about that forum you mention which is just full of gossip and rumors but not very many facts.

Cyberspace Due Diligence Options - China - Country Risk - GlobalTrade.net

In my business I have to deal with just the facts, and so far the facts are that nobody has filed any complaints or has been a victim of anything at the hands of the CTC. Perhaps people who falsely accuse others have hidden agendas of their own.

[Due Diligence]

I looked at the article at Fraudwatchers and read all the posts on scams - report the scam here
The article on Fraudwatchers does not appear to full of rumor or gossip. It points out several allegations which appear to be well documented and have collaborating evidence:

1. China Trade Commission's websites Home and Home were both registered in July 3, 2011 by a Canadian investment group. See: ChinaTradeCommission.org - Home

2. On their website and in numerous free press release, China Trade Commission claims to be have been created in 1996, and to have been involved in an entire kaleidoscope of activity including, but not limited to, conducting due diligence, collecting money from debtors, conducting arbitration, maintaining various scammer databases and certifying various companies and charities. They charge $5,000 for a regular membership and $10,000 for a VIP membership. They offer the services to non-members ala carte for various fees. Fraudwatchers questions the veracity of CTC's claims, testimonials and the worth of their services, in light of the date their domain was registered and the fact that there is no independent mention of CTC on the internet except for articles in late 2009 stating that they put on some children's shows. CTC has many free press releases, the bulk of which are in 2011 after their domain was registered, though there are a few in 2010 and 2009. Free press releases are not verified and a company is free to put whatever they wish in them.

3. CTC copied a list of scammers verbatim. The list was copyrighted though freely available on the internet. CTC put their own copyright on it, claimed it as their own and offered it for sale. Their website was suspended until they removed the list.

4. CTC placed a row of images on their website which they represented to be members of their staff. One image turned out to be that of someone else who was on Facebook and was not a CTC staff member. CTC subsequently removed the entire row of images. CTC also used an image to represent other employees which turned to be a stock photo which couldn't have been their employees.

See: China Trade Commission is a SCAM - chinatradecommission.org chinatradecommission.com - Fraudwatchers

The various posts on scams - report the scam here, are those of China Trade Commission, and several others persons who claim to work closely with or kno various members of China Trade Commission. They claim CTC is legitimate and was established in 1996. They make various other claims, including, but not limited to, (a) CTC had a .cn domain website for 7 years, before moving to their current domain because of blocking and hacking by the Chinese government, however, the .cn domain was never named, (b) CTC did not really commit copyright infringement, since the subject list was combined with their own list, (c) CTC did not misrepresent an image of someone else as one of their staff because no one in China can access Facebook, (d) CTC's website was hacked and unauthorized images uploaded; the hacker's IP address was traced to within 5 miles of a Vancouver, WA post office address which is supposedly the registered address of the suspected hacker. There is no indication how this address was discovered. I Googled that address and it apparently belongs to Privacy Post. They cite many news articles, but none mention the CTC.

What is really important here is not allegations of smear or censorship. Those are largely irrelevant. Should someone who is contemplating retaining the China Trade Commission simply take the word of unknown posters' as evidence that CTC is what it claims to be, completely ignore what appear to be valid concerns, and conduct no further inquiry? Well of course not, anyone considering retaining CTC should obviously conduct their own investigation and perform proper due diligence before parting with their money and depending on CTC's services. Is anyone disputing that?

[Fred The Fed]

Dear Due Diligence...

Please do not attempt to put words in my mouth. I speak for myself and only for myself. I never said my opinion is conclusive - YOU did. I think people are intelligent enough to draw their own conclusions using their own gray matter - not mine nor yours.

I did further research after reading your post and spoke with Kevin at the China Trade Commission for almost 45 minutes on Skype. After I sent him a scan of my PI license and gave him my old CTC client number, he agreed to talk with me frankly and confidentially. Below is some of what I am authorized to disclose:

The CTC sent three rebuttals with verifiable facts and copies of their registration to Fraudwatchers along with a letter from their Legal Counsel, Joseph Wu. Only one of the rebuttals were posted. The other two were censored and then they were banned from making any further posts, including from the lawyer.

Here is one of the rebuttals that were deleted and Kevin promised to send me the other one that their lawyer attempted to post but was wrongly banned from doing so...

scams - View Single Post - List of Scam Websites

He also gave me the names and telephone numbers of 5 people who also say they were censored at Fraudwatchers when they tried to reply to allegations with comments that supported or defend the CTC. Three of these five people have already explained how they were censored publicly at Scam.com. Here are their comments:

scams - View Single Post - List of Scam Websites

scams - View Single Post - List of Scam Websites

scams - View Single Post - List of Scam Websites

When a forum relies on censorship to push their own opinion or hidden agenda to the forefront, that forum loses all credibility in my opinion. This is why I urge people to read this article:

http://www.globaltrade.net/international-trade-import-exports/f/business/pdf/China/Investing-Cyberspace-Due-Diligence-Options.html

Kevin has since sent me three documents that I have verified to be be genuine through my own independent channels:

1. A scan of Kevin's passport
2. The CTC's original Honk Kong registration from 1996
3. A one page letter from Atty. Joseph Wu documenting his work for the CTC since 2006 and the recent hacker attack on the CTC's web site and smear campaign now underway against the organization.

Also, I personally prefer to believe people who are willing to identify themselves, not people who hide between cyber screen names like "Mystery Guest". For example, I give Robert Wilson, far more belief than Mystery Guest. Here are Wilson's remarks:

scams - View Single Post - List of Scam Websites

Likewise the comments of the lady who works at the Beijing Bank have more significance to me because she is not taking one side or another, but provides information that confirms the CTC's investigative work in 2007, just as Scam Patrol did as well. Here are their comments:

scams - View Single Post - List of Scam Websites

scams - View Single Post - List of Scam Websites

I cruised the internet and found over 3 dozen news and press releases going back to 2008 and found many stories that were not generated by the CTC but by local newspapers like the China Daily, People's Daily, CRI Radio, etc. All of this serves to document the CTC was working in Beijing at least as far back as 2008. And I still have a brochure that the CTC sent me back in 2006 from their old address on Kimberly Street in Kowloon, Hong Kong. Here are just some of the links that I found:

Santa Claus is Coming to Town!

Amazing Las Vegas magician to perform for Beijing Children - Sunday, November 29th | PRLog

Search press releases

Expat kids get the chance to connect with Santa

And I am more inclined to believe a group of guys who have been donating thousands of dollars to kid's activities since 1998 than some clown named "Mystery Guest" who relies on assumptions to jump to conclusions. Sorry - I have a brain.

Further, I have met a fellow from the CTC named Kirby in NY in 2008. And as it turned out, we discovered that another CTC guy's father (Tyler) worked with me on Operation Greenbacks back in 1980 in Miami (Joint Special Task Force that made over 2 dozen money laundering busts). I personally used the CTC on a handful of cases in 2006-2008, and they helped me expedite an investigation on one of my most frustrating cases. Kirby has never lied to me about anything, and he he always handled my requests for assistance within a day or two. They did not always produce the desired results, but I know they did their best based on the reports they provided me. A sample of one of their due diligence reports can be seen here, and frankly, nobody does better in Asia than this for less money:

http://www.chinatradecommission.org/...ort-Sample.pdf

Sure, for $10,000 I can get twice as much details in a report elsewhere, but for $3,000 this is a great deal, especially for someone who may be planning to invest $100,000 into a Chinese venture. I also used to do my on-line database searches at the old .cn website in 2007-2008 but the site was blocked more than it was up! They had a different payment arrangement back then (about 20% cheaper with unlimited daily access)

And if I was in the whistle-blowing business in China, and was pointing fingers at corrupt government officials, the very last thing I would ever do is put my real name or photo on a web site! I would be a grease spot on the sidewalk within a week! Do you realize how many investigative reporters simply disappear in China? (Do a Google search)

But in closing, I refer to the comments of the LAPD guy who cuts to the chase when he said the following at Scam.com:

"Excuse me all you debaters… who is the victim and how was he/she cheated ** the CTC people and for how much, when, and where? If there is such a victim, is there a way to confirm the victim is real or just another fabricated on-line entity? I personally just spent 47 minutes scouring the net and did not find any complaints posted anywhere. This other bullcrap in not relative in my opinion. I am so sick of cowards that never identify themselves and make damaging claims against others without proof or legal responsibility. If people want to point fingers and accuse they should identify themselves as someone more than “Mystery Guest”. If what thy allege is true, they have nothing to fear. If they are guessing or fabricating, they deserve to get slammed in a slander suit. I did manage to find this online and believe it is right on target:

http://www.globaltrade.net/international-trade-import-exports/f/business/pdf/China/Investing-Cyberspace-Due-Diligence-Options.html


And as for China Chick who started of this thread, I still agree with here that there are no better black lists of scams and frauds for China, America, Australia, Canada, nor the U.K. than these here:

Black List

What is important is that people have an advanced warning system in place before they get swindled and due diligence is not cheap. Getting ripped off is always much more costly. The CTC does a good job in my personal and professional opinion. BTW... due diligence, I shared my background with you, what is yours? Are you really "Mystery Guest" or "Mr. Poirot" masquerading behind yet another on-line alias?

[Due Diligence]

You shared you background with me? I have no way whatsoever of verifying that anything you have told me is true. I get emails all the time from all manner of scammers who say they are princes, bank managers, Western Union employees, bank presidents and of course I don't believe them. I don't really understand why I'd simply believe what you say, either. No offense, but I govern my actions by what I can verify, that's just common sense. You could be Scam Patrol, or China Chick, masquerading behind another screen name for all anyone knows. You could be a 10 year old on doing some home work project, or a writer doing research for a book. There is absolutely no way to tell. That obviously goes for everything you have posted. I see nothing verifiable in any of it. I hope persons who read this forum aren't going to simply believe what that you post. Whoever you are you are quite intent on promoting CTC so, in addition to the fact, that nothing you say is verifiable you are quite biased.

I looked at the "rebuttals" you posted and I don't see any thing even remotely verifiable in them at all. The only facts I see is that the CTC put on some Children's show in 2009. That doesn't show that they were created in 1996. What is verifiable is that their domain was registered in July 2011. So, anyone considering whether to retain them should consider whether the organization is legitimate and take independent steps to verify this. Again, common sense.

[Due Diligence]

Originally Posted by Fred The Fed Here are just some of the links that I found: Search press releases

Free Press Release Distribution - PRLog is free press release service which simply circulates the information it is given. This is their disclaimer: "Issuers of the press releases are solely responsible for the content of their press releases. PRLog can't be held liable for the content posted by others." So anything in those press releases is unreliable and could be false.

Originally Posted by Fred The Fed I also used to do my on-line database searches at the old .cn website in 2007-2008 but the site was blocked more than it was up!

What was the url or domain name of the "old .cn website"?

[China Chick]

Wow... this thread is getting ugly. I just wanted to help keep people from getting burned in China when I started this thread about the China Trade Commission. I guess there will always be people who will always want to argue or look for things that are wrong with everythig, rather than just use the information and enjoy the benefits!

As I explained in my original post a couple of weeks ago, my husband and I lived in China for five years from March of 2003 to just after the 2008 Olympics (one of my very best memories in life). We met two guys from the China Trade Commission in Hong Kong in 2005 at the Peninsula Hotel. Both were in their mid 30s, and I remember that one of them also worked for Morgan Stanley. Sorry, I can't remember full names, but I probably still have their business cards some where. I only remember that one guy named Carl, was a Bill Murray look-alike and the other guy had Marine Corps tattoos on his muscular arms.

Anyway, both my husband and I had used their blacklists for several years but were a little miffed that the pricing structure has changed significantly. Yes, I also remember the old CTC .cn website and the reason I remember it is because it was a hit or miss ordeal logging on. That site was a pain in the ass because it was either blocked for days, or kept getting hijacked to some Chinese patriotic website with historic photos from the 1949 revolution!

I remember how clever they were to fix the problem by disguising the web site as a chinese commercial site with one of the home page buttons linked to the black lists and other goodies. I guess the government goons must have caught on eventually?

Just now I looked at the web site and see that they added some new features I don't remember seeing before. But I can verify that we took our young daughter to see a CTC Santa Claus in 2007 and still have the free photo I got from them. We also took her to a free CTC Halloween party in 2006 but the costumes were so scary that my 4 year old refused to go in! I am curious to know - what is all this fuss about anyway?

[Due Diligence]

Originally Posted by China Chick Yes, I also remember the old CTC .cn website and the reason I remember it is because it was a hit or miss ordeal logging on.

What was the domain of the "old CTC .cn website?

Originally Posted by China Chick - what is all this fuss about anyway?

Well you and Fred the Fed say that China Trade Commission is great and you each have very detailed and very intricate stories about how you remember them, and have had a great experiences with them, and have used their services, however, none of what either of what you say can be independently verified. The only verifiable fact on the internet is that both of the websites of China Trade Commission were registered in July 2011. So when they say they were created in 1996 and the only thing on the internet is that they put some some Christmas shoes in 2009, I suggested that before anybody pays for the steep price of membership or purchases any of their services they should do some due diligence and make sure China Trade Commission is legitimate. For some reason, this has provoked a firestorm.

[Fred The Fed]

UPDATE: A 5th person confirms successful due diligence work of China Trade Commission in 2009/2010...

I received the below link in an email from yet another party claiming to be censored at Fraudwatchers.org. The link is self explanatory and has not been edited;

scams - View Single Post - List of Scam Websites

"I have been using this Scam.com site as a preliminary due diligence tool for about five years. I am an investment banker in China. I was usually just a passive observer here until about a year ago when I put my first post in October of 2010 at

http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=132499

The reason I put up that post about a year ago is because I had been cooperating in a sting operation since late 2008 with Scam Patrol International who introduced me to investigators from Interpol and the China Trade Commission back at that time. I agreed to work undercover as "bait" so to speak. I don't know if I am allowed to use names but I worked with B.L. at Scam Patrol, J.S. at Interpol, and K.L. at China Trade Commission. I was interviewed by all three parties and was told to respond to a China Daily newspaper ad from AICG. I also twice wore a hidden microphone for the CTC when I met privately with Arnold.

The rest is history, that AICG band of thieves was exposed by Scam Patrol and the CTC which flooded China with a "Global Fraud Alert" a copy of which is still here at their new web site:

http://www.chinatradecommission.org/FRAUD-ALERT.pdf

Everyone in China knows about the "Beijing Bandit" and is glad he was put out of business. Unfortunately, his wife's "Guanxi" (Chinese for political connections) saved him from prison and because he is married to a Chinese citizen, Mr. Arnold cannot be deported. But at least he is not defrauding investors any longer. They spent over a year, and I assume they spent a lot of money to nail the Beijing Bandit, but they did not give up.

After that incident, I began to use this web site more often and have hired the CTC to do some investigative work for us from time to time. They ar enot cheap, but they are good.

I was just recently alerted to the current BS controversy by a colleague, and I hope my above experience helps to resolve the dispute. I still have monthly contact with K.L. and L.A. at the CTC in Beijing regarding professional due diligence matters."

Anyone following this thread may want to see the other arguments made at Scam.com at: List of Scam Websites