All men must read

[Littleacres]

Any man wishing to gain access or custody of a child, you must do activities that will positively affect the outlook as you as a parent. You must get yourself in counseling to show that you are trying to better yourself for the sake of your child. you must take some form of parent class, preferably one dealing with how to raise a child in a broken family, this will as well, show the courts that you want what is best for your daughter. I don't know why the lawyers you guys goto are not telling you this, but in my expeience this is the first thing my lwyer told me after my seperation. don't wtire your Ex's nasty letters, don't leave your Ex nasty messages or emails, Al you need to be talking to your ex about is the children, I know this is hard, especially if you still have feelings for the mother, but you can't worry about her. you must be willing to go too the ends of the earth to support the well being and protecet the relationship betweenn father and child

[momintrouble]

ok, first off, i dont agree with your post. ALL men do not need to do this and it is unfair to say that. Just as it would be unfair to say that ALL women are trying to trash the dads and not let the kids see them. Some men do need to do this and if your lawyer recommends that you go that route, it was for a reason. I have never heard of all men having to go through counseling or parenting clases. Ever. I have heard of the dads having to go through these classes if there was a reason for it(anger problems, putting the child in a bad situation) and it should be a given that there should never be disparaging remarks between/about the other parent.
Sorry, i just dont agree.

[PapaJohn]

I agree with Mom 1000%!! How about the mothers Little? Should THEY be taking these courses too?? I never saw you mention that at all.
Case in point, my son fighting for his son. Children's Aid Society is involved. They initially got involved because the MOTHER left the child unattended in a car seat in our front yard so she could go and partake in an argument. When she was FORCED to go back and watch the child, instead of staying there she picked up the one month old baby and came right back over to the arguement after one of the participants pulled a weapon and tried to use it and got in the face of the person who pulled the weapon with THE BABY IN HER ARMS!!!!
Yet when C.A.S. got involved it was my son who was told to take all these courses and the mother was told NOTHING!!!
When my son and the mother broke up and during several court dates my son has been requested by C.A.S. and the mother's lawyer to take all these courses (when there is absolutely no evidence to show he needs them) yet the mother is told NOTHING!!!!!!! We have photo and video evidence that the mother is abusing and neglecting the child and still she is not told to take any courses or anything. Our son is told to "move on and get over it". Move on and get over your son being abused and neglected??????? This is C.A.S., the mother's lawyer, the court, and my son's own lawyer telling him this even in the face of tons of evidence proving the child is in danger in the care of his mother!!!
So Little.. You best take your own advice and do some investigating before you start ripping on fathers. Like I stated in my thread (to which this is an obvious retaliation to) I know full well it's a two way street with parents. There are some good fathers and some bad, there are some good mothers and some bad. However, the difference between you and me Little is I do NOT lump them all in together. I make specific distinctions when I speak about issues such as this.

[PapaJohn]

Since you didn't have the guts to do it in public, where it belonged Little, I'll do it for you...
This is a PM Little sent me and my reply to it.

Originally Posted by Littleacres

Hi,
i just wanted to say that my ex is like one of these guys thats constantly accuses me of only thinking about his money. I was a stay at home mom for 4 years, i never asked for a penny , rarely got one at that. When we seperated and I asked for child support, all of a sudden all i was about was the money. I just wanted to be able to properly take care of my children, seeing as how we both agreed that even though we seperated we had agreed that I would remain a stay at home mother and brent would see the children on his days off, as he worked 14 hours a day. now he has gotton himself locked up for drinking and driving. He is not anice person when drinking and lied about his drinking constantly. so now that i am going for full custody of the children, and limited visitatons from the father, he now accusses me of being all about the money. you know what I am tired of , men who believe that stay at home mothers are to get nothing, because their work does not bring home a paycheck it is worth nothing, nada, zilch. Now I am all about the money, i didn't dare ask for a cent for 4 years, and now i am about the money. so before you judge all of these so called ignorant selfish women, maybe you should do some investigations on what the father is really like, you know the one behind closed doors. Should I expose my children to an ugly drunk, should i allow my children to stay with a man who will possibly be drunk the whole time, drive them around while he is pissed. Or maybe just maybe if I take the children away, maybe he will see that as an incentive to smarten up and grow up and become a man.
i just thought you should know to properly investigate both sides of the story before start throwing mud. And as far as the money........if a doesn't want to pay child support.......what does that really say about his character......why wouldn't he want to make sure his children are well taken care of.
i don't think a fathers rights should be taken away, but why is it so hard for a man to stand up and fight for his children, I would go flat broke to make sure my children were to stay with me........if these men really want custody, then why are they not willing to the ends of the earth for them.
i know..it's easier to rant and rave, complain and just throw their hands in the air and say " I give up"

First of all, I HAVE investigated and I KNOW the truth of the situation. A very large (far too large) portion of the women yapping about support ARE INDEED all about the money. Most times the money doesn't even go to the child but is used by the mother for her own selfish needs.
Second of all, you completely and convenienlty took my post entirely out of context and twisted it to suit a woman's view. I specifically mentioned bad fathers AND mothers in my post.
Third, my post was NOT directed at ALL women!!! It was directly posted to ignorant selfish women. But you again twist it to suit your own female agenda.
As for what a man pays for support, a man should only have pay a percentage of support equal to the time he has with the children. If the mother wants to take the child(ren) away from the father then she should have to pay for it.
Fourth, you ask "why is it so hard for a man to stand up and fight for his children?" REALITY of the family court system is why!!!! The Carter of rights and the Family Law Acts (at least here in Canada) specifically stipulate that a mother and father are to be treated 100% equal in custody cases. Yet to this very day when two parents walk into a family court in a custody case the HUGE advantage automatically goes to the parent with breasts. That is a FACT!!!!! Many (far too many) fathers do in fact go broke and do go to the ends of the earth fighting for their children. And what do they get for it?? Every second frikin weekend and a huge support payment. I am one of many, many fathers who fight for equal rights for BOTH mothers and fathers, not just fathers. And I can gaurantee you there are far less women out there willing to fight for fathers rights as there are fathers fighting for the rights of BOTH parents.
When a man is faced with a system that is inherently biased against him regarding his rights as a father and even his own lawyer says "it's the norm for a father to get every second weekend, so just accept it" what else can he do but throw his hands in the air???
Fifth, you decision to send me this in a PM instead of posting it on the public board only proves you have something to hide.

[tbyte]

Yes, that was truly a poorly considered post, LittleAcres. But on the flip side, kudos for finding something that Mom, PapaJohn, and myself can all agree upon.

[Littleacres]

First off, I already put my post to papjohn in the public, obviously papajohn you failed to look. Second of all yes all men do need to do this, I never said that the courts were not unfair when it came to men and custody battles, this is why they have to go the extra mile to make themselves look like gold......it will not help them to call names and refer to women, papa john you told me that I should accept the fact that the courts are unfair. why do you think that i am telling men this. A good lawyer will tell or should be telling any man or woman this, when trying to gain custody of a child, especially a MAN. you must be able to prove that you are a good parent, and unfortunatley just saying you are a good dad is not good enough. I was not ripping all fathers either. i realize that the courts are unfair and right now that is reality and it sounds like you guys need to except that fight. And instead of complaining about women and men, don't you think it would be more appropriate to deal with the reality of the situation. Are any of you doing anything concrete to change any of these matters, or are is all lip service.

[Littleacres]

All I am sensing from any of you is a whole lot of anger and unfortunatly, anger will get you no where in the legal system, and going to counceling because you are court ordered to do so does not look good, what looks good is if it is a volunteered choice

[tbyte]

Littleacres, you are laboring under the all too common delusion that our family courts actually care about the best interests of the child.
They do not.
They are staffed by magistrates who lacked the skills or dedication needed to be successful as private attorneys, appointed by judges who simply do not want to be bothered with custody and divorce cases, assisted by guardians that are looking for easy extra income, and supported by bureaucrats who carry out the orders with mindlessly robotic routine.
Frankly, taking parenting classes without being ordered to do so by the court would not only be a waste of time and money, but would also be seen as an admission of a lack of parenting skills.

[Littleacres]

so what do you suggest a man does to make his chances better when fighting for the custody of his children?

[tbyte]

He needs to focus on what is best for the children, and he needs to be patient and smart, and he needs support from family and friends.