Just found out child's father may be suicidal, 6 hours to decide action!

I live in Ontario, Canada...

My friend has joint custody of her son with her ex. Today she was supposed to pick him up at 8AM, but as usual he was causing trouble and refusing to give the child at that time. After getting the cops involved, she finally got him at around 10AM. This is after withholding him the previous day when she was supposed to have access.

After she had obtained her son, we were talking with him, and he confessed to us that his father had told him "I don't care whether I live or die". The child is genuinely afraid that his father might commit suicide, he's only 8... but he says he has a "gut feeling". We have called the police, they said they are just going to make sure that he is alright and not suicidal at this current moment. No response yet, will respond to this thread when we get one. The problem is that we are pretty sure it will come up negative, he would hide it and do so well.

The child is due back at 6:30PM tonight. She is contemplating whether or not to withhold custody from him at that time as she genuinely is fearing for her sons life; will he hurt him along with himself? Would this be advisable? Whether or not he is actually suicidal is unknown (She says he most definitely is mentally unstable, but he's great at hiding it), so even if he was just saying that to scare his child... could custody still be withheld? Is this not a form of serious abuse that needs to stop immediately, is this considered an emergency? We need to know whether or not we are overreacting.

I'm sorry, I just want explain why I didn't show much emotion for the father himself.

He used to beat her, and their son (up until he was 5 years old and old enough to tell the teacher he was scared of dad). He held a knife to his stomache and told her that she would never get her son, and that the only way away from him was to kill him. The custody battle began when she ran away from him to a women's shelter because he was threatening her that if she ever told anyone, he would run away with the kid and she'd never see him again. Since then I've had to watch as he uses his son as a chess piece to hurt his mother. Yes, counselling would be the ideal scenario, by all means I nor her want him dead, please forgive my callous appearance. I'm running out of time and we still dont know what to do...

When he withheld visitation the day before and for those two hours, its because he knew he was hurting the mother and knew it. She has to pick up her son in a cab because she cant afford a car. He knows this. He waited two hours because he knew that he was racking up her cab meter, when he finally came out he had a big grin on his face because he knew how high the cab bill had gone up...

[PapaJohn]

When you say they have joint custody, what are the terms? How much time with the father and how much with the mother?
Was all this abuse brought up in court? Was/is there tangible evidence to support it? I can't see a court giving an abusive father/husband custody at all really.. most times if he does get any access it's usually supervised.
This comment about not caring if he lives or dies... how was it said? What was the context? People say that all the time and don't really mean it.
Regarding the child's comment about dad scaring him... I was investigated many years ago by C.A.S. because one day in class my 5 year old stood up and was supposed to tell something about their parents. My son said I scared him some times. Immediately the teacher and principal called C.A.S. and with held our two sons at school until my wife and I arrived to discuss this. If the idiot teacher and principal had of done the right thing and asked my son what he meant by me scaring him he would have told them (like he told the C.A.S. worker when she asked) that I scare him when we are playing the boogey man game... This was a game I would play with my sons in order to get them so they were not afraid of the dark. We would play hide and seek in the dark of the upstairs and when whoever was it found the person they were looking for they would jump out and say BOO!! and tickle the other person. This helped them alot as after the game I would say to them "Now see? There's nothing to be afraid of in the dark. You can actually have fun in the dark." The C.A.S. worker was satisfied and chided the teacher and principal for not talking to our son before calling them.
Now I'm not saying this is what is going on in your case.. I'm just saying that when a child says they are scared you need to find out exactly what they mean.

Don't think I am taking anyone's side here, I'm not.. I'm just trying to get more information in order to help better.

Originally Posted by PapaJohn When you say they have joint custody, what are the terms? How much time with the father and how much with the mother? Was all this abuse brought up in court? Was/is there tangible evidence to support it? I can't see a court giving an abusive father/husband custody at all really.. most times if he does get any access it's usually supervised. This comment about not caring if he lives or dies... how was it said? What was the context? People say that all the time and don't really mean it. Regarding the child's comment about dad scaring him... I was investigated many years ago by C.A.S. because one day in class my 5 year old stood up and was supposed to tell something about their parents. My son said I scared him some times. Immediately the teacher and principal called C.A.S. and with held our two sons at school until my wife and I arrived to discuss this. If the idiot teacher and principal had of done the right thing and asked my son what he meant by me scaring him he would have told them (like he told the C.A.S. worker when she asked) that I scare him when we are playing the boogey man game... This was a game I would play with my sons in order to get them so they were not afraid of the dark. We would play hide and seek in the dark of the upstairs and when whoever was it found the person they were looking for they would jump out and say BOO!! and tickle the other person. This helped them alot as after the game I would say to them "Now see? There's nothing to be afraid of in the dark. You can actually have fun in the dark." The C.A.S. worker was satisfied and chided the teacher and principal for not talking to our son before calling them. Now I'm not saying this is what is going on in your case.. I'm just saying that when a child says they are scared you need to find out exactly what they mean. Don't think I am taking anyone's side here, I'm not.. I'm just trying to get more information in order to help better.

Firstly I want to clarify. The child is not scared OF the father, he was scared for his fathers safety. He was afraid his father might hurt himself.

The terms of the custody are as follows:
He is the primary parent. This is because he would never get a job back when they were together. She worked night shifts to support the family while he just focused on having fun. Mon-Fri she picks him up from school, and at 7:30PM she has a third party drop off the child at his residence. On Friday, she gets him overnight, third party drops him off at 3:00. Sunday she picks him up at 8AM in a vehicle, third party drops him back off at 6:30.

A note about the third party. The reason why a third party is necessary is because three charges were pressed by the mother against the father; two counts of assault and one count of uttered threat. These charges are still in process. Recently, the official third party had been eliminated. It was the brother of the father, they do not get along well at ALL. The child loved his uncle, and the father knew that... the father made it his mission to eliminate him as the third party, and completely out of the child's life. We believe he is trying to isolate the child until the only one left is himself. He managed to get his brother to slip up, either that or he lied... the uncle now has charges pressed against him for an uttered threat, removing his access to both the father and the child. The child was crushed...

We are currently working on having me become the third party. He is absolutely denying me as the third party, says that her first choice was a bad one, so he gets to pick the next, yet the one he has chosen cant even do drop offs, this is where things get interesting... he wants her as a third party for communication only. He is trying to eliminate the third parties right to deliver the child so that he can get closer and closer to her residence. He blackmailed her today saying that she wouldn't get the child unless she wrote the third party a text message stating that he was allowed to pick the child up and drop him off at the corner of her street, which very close to her house. He is trying to close in the distance between him and her, and it's quite frightening. She is trying to avoid all contact as even eye contact is enough to frighten her when it comes to this man, and I cant blame her for that one as he terrifies me, too.




Time has run out, today when the time rolled around to drop him off, we did. After some thought, we came to the decision that his life probably wasn't in immediate danger. The police didn't think so either (not much consolation).


Now, the current situation has ended. But I'd like to take the chance to ask a question. Currently, she has three charges pressed against him; two counts of assault, one count of uttered threat. These charges were placed months after they occurred because the mother was not ready to fight back, she was afraid. At the time one of one of the assaults, she got a bruise on her arm. I took a picture of it for her. As it is, that is the only piece of evidence we have. This is when he pushed her into a table. The other charge for assault is when he choked her. The problem we are worried about is that when he choked her, and she threatened to call the police, he punched HIMSELF in the eye and said "There, now its just domestic violence". Lastly, when he threatened her and said "Only way that you'll ever get away from me is if you kill me" and held a knife to his stomach, that is when she escaped to the woman's shelter. My question is this: Will these charges stick? Is there enough evidence? We also have the possibility of a witness, but she is also terrified of this man... is subpoenaing her an option?

[PapaJohn]

Just going by what you posted... this guy sounds like he has some serious mental issues and it surprises me he has primary custody....
If the mother can prove any of this she needs to do it. She should buy one of those little digital voice recorders and have it running whenever she is speaking with him. She should also video tape as much as she can, if she can.
I'm not sure about the current evidence... Here in Ontario Canada I don't think it would be enough. As for the witness, yes I believe the prosecutor should suopena her. Also you and the mother should speak with her and let her know the well being of not just the mother but the child is at stake.

Originally Posted by PapaJohn Just going by what you posted... this guy sounds like he has some serious mental issues and it surprises me he has primary custody.... If the mother can prove any of this she needs to do it. She should buy one of those little digital voice recorders and have it running whenever she is speaking with him. She should also video tape as much as she can, if she can. I'm not sure about the current evidence... Here in Ontario Canada I don't think it would be enough. As for the witness, yes I believe the prosecutor should suopena her. Also you and the mother should speak with her and let her know the well being of not just the mother but the child is at stake.

The problem is, she isn't speaking to him anymore. Part of his bail conditions are that he is not allowed to speak to her or make contact with her, which is why a third party is necessary.

This man is crazy, not dumb... matter of fact he is much the opposite, he's playing to win and she tells me that when he sets out to ruin someone's life, he succeeds. He's apparently done it before to his old boss... completely ruined.

The most troubling part about all this is that he's one of those people you would never know has a side like this. I spoke to him before I knew her and he seemed like the most friendly guy ever, very disarming smile and whatnot. He's made the vast majority of his moves unprovable, and we are both terrified that she's going to lose the child to this man whom we know is so very incapable of properly parenting this child. I'm doing my best to comfort her, but shes losing hope, fast.

I'm sorry to rant and rave. My question is this: This man is clearly unstable, how can we legally prove it? He's told the police that he doesn't want contact from me, so if I talk to him it could be considered harassment. Is recording him even an option? I thought it was a law that recording someone without their knowledge and using it in court was against the law...? She's demanded a psychiatric assessment in the court order, but we're worried he'll either find a way to wiggle out of it (he could easily claim he cant afford it, because he cant), or he'd be so good that he could fake his way through it, because as I've said you would never tell about his mental state if you were on friendly terms with him, can a psychiatric assessment see through that?