Visitation Issue

I have a serious issue here that I don't know what to do about....
For the past few months my kids have not wanted to be with their dad due to things he has subjected them to (from their own mouths) like marijuana and telling them they could smoke it or drink and he would be ok with it, and having reoccurring underage parties w/a lot of teen boys drinking and getting drunk (him included) and talking dirty around them and my daughter (14 at the time) would be afraid of the situation and he would tell her she was old enough to deal with it and she was afraid something could happen to her (or her brother (12-1/2 at that time) and her father would be too drunk to protect her. He also told them when he had them for an overnight visit as he was leaving them at his house alone so that he and his girlfriend could go out to the bar, "Me and ____ are going out to the bar for a while....when we get home, just ignore the noises you hear coming from the bedroom"....and so on.

For a while he didn't care that they didn't want to come over until he began to find out the reasons why. I filed a case with Child Protective Services after finding some of these things out. I also decided since I was finally going to start taking some action, that I would also file a petition for Child Support. He was "Indicated" for the marijuana issue but everything else got swept under the rug.

He then filed a petition against me for child custody and visitation modification.

I had to go to the intitial hearing w/out a lawyer....he had a lawyer. He was able to get the Judge to continue visitation as per our divorce decree; which states "reasonable visitation agreeable to both parties". I told the Judge that they did not want to see him and that he had been Indicated by CPS for the marijuana situation but all he said to him was he was not to use drugs or alcohol 24 hrs prior or during visitation with the kids and he was not to talk bad about me or any of this situation to the kids while he has them.
I didn't know if I could actually, do anything, without a lawyer so I didn't.

My kids are distraught and not only don't want to see him but say that they are going to refuse to go when he gets here. They're nervous, upset and my son felt he was going to be physically sick today thinking about it. I told them that I can't go against the Judges order.

Also, their father's lawyer wrote me a letter stating the visitation date and time to be from noon Saturday until 7pm Sunday. Because that was the "assumed" norm before, his lawyer and the kids law guardian feel it is appropriate visitation. However, our divorce decree states "reasonable visitation agreeable upon both parties" and that's all.

My daughter wrote a letter to her law guardian to see if she could at least get it to be just a few hour visit but she has been NO help either. She actually asked my daughter why this is just coming out now if it had been going on for so long?!! (Seems as if she is insinuating that my daughter is dramatizing or making it up or something if you ask me.)

My daughter just reached the age that she began to realize that these situations not only made her uncomfortable but also were unsafe for her and her brother and morally unethical to say the least. It was shortly after she began disclosing these situations to me that I reported it.

I don't have a lawyer yet and can't get in until Wednesday so I have no counsel regarding this weekends visit.

I would have no issues if it was just a "dad and child" spat or something. Then I would certainly tell them to go and try to work it through with him but he is unfit.... not to mention he has a severe sexual addiction (which includes teen porn, homosexuality and bestiality - the reason I divorced him). Unfortunately this lifestyle has obviously increased as it is now filtering over into his time with our children. I never kept the kids from him before because I never thought his filthiness would filter over into his time with them but since our break up he has continually gone downhill. The Judge does not know these things yet and therefore postponed court until I could get a lawyer and continued the visitation.

The kids have suffered emotionally for it; not to mention he's been bashing ME to them for the past three to four years of which I also didn't know about.


Their father filed the petition with the court against me with false allegations/accusations. I assume those have already been read by the Judge and the Law Guardians.....however, my answers to those allegations and my own allegations against him have not.

I have had a canon full of ammunition that I could have used against this man for the past four years to my children (if I was that kind of person/mother) and to others. I know the kind of man he is (depraved in many ways) but I know he was always at least reliable enough to have fun with the kids and would take them to do some adventurous things that I wasn't able to do with them, and even in all of that, I appreciated the fact that he provided that much for them. When we were married he abandoned us dozens upon dozens of times (I know now for sexual binges mainly) but would always return home and I never let on to my kids what was going on except for once when it was nearing the end. They were devestated....and so when he asked to come back, I let him. That was the last time he abandoned us but he did not stop the severe sexual addictions of which I would later find out about. We divorced because he continued lying and using after years of trying to help him and get help for him. Still I wanted the kids to have a relationship with their dad. When he would call to cancel or change days/times/weeks - I never gave him a hassle. When he was four to six weeks behind in support and still never got caught up, I never withheld them. I viewed the two issues as totally separate issues. If the kids were okay about going, then I was okay about them going. But as they got older and began to put two and two together, and started sharing some things with me, and it was a slow revealing process, I finally had to take some measures. I filed a report with Child Protective Services, the first one was actually reported by the school guidance counselor. He was Indicated for that one concerning the marijuana issue but all the other issues were not regarded. I filed a second report upon more findings and was awaiting the outcome of that (hoping they would file for supervised visitation) and in the meantime he filed against me.

I am in the middle....trying to obey the law and be an advocate for my children as well. I don't know what to do. I can't seem to get any help from any where.

My question is what will happen IF my kids (my daughter is 15 now and my son will be 14 in two weeks) absolutely REFUSE to go with him Saturday when he gets here? Will he be able to call the police and will they force my kids to go? I will not violate the court order but how can I force them to go? Can they flat out refuse? And what will happen as a result of it? Will I be held accountable? If their father charges me with contempt, is that an immediate thing or would I have a few days (to retain the lawyer on Wed)? Can he get an immediate warrant that would order the police to come and get the kids and make them go or is there a time factor involved in that as well?

I'm unregisterd as I probably won't have to use the forum again but thought I'd give it a try. Thank you.

[mare3377]

I decided I'd better register so that I can remember how to access the site!! So I'm reposting under my registration name, mare3377.

I have a serious issue here that I don't know what to do about....
For the past few months my kids have not wanted to be with their dad due to things he has subjected them to (from their own mouths) like marijuana and telling them they could smoke it or drink and he would be ok with it, and having reoccurring underage parties w/a lot of teen boys drinking and getting drunk (him included) and talking dirty around them and my daughter (14 at the time) would be afraid of the situation and he would tell her she was old enough to deal with it and she was afraid something could happen to her (or her brother (12-1/2 at that time) and her father would be too drunk to protect her. He also told them when he had them for an overnight visit as he was leaving them at his house alone so that he and his girlfriend could go out to the bar, "Me and ____ are going out to the bar for a while....when we get home, just ignore the noises you hear coming from the bedroom"....and so on.

For a while he didn't care that they didn't want to come over until he began to find out the reasons why. I filed a case with Child Protective Services after finding some of these things out. I also decided since I was finally going to start taking some action, that I would also file a petition for Child Support. He was "Indicated" for the marijuana issue but everything else got swept under the rug.

He then filed a petition against me for child custody and visitation modification.

I had to go to the intitial hearing w/out a lawyer....he had a lawyer. He was able to get the Judge to continue visitation as per our divorce decree; which states "reasonable visitation agreeable to both parties". I told the Judge that they did not want to see him and that he had been Indicated by CPS for the marijuana situation but all he said to him was he was not to use drugs or alcohol 24 hrs prior or during visitation with the kids and he was not to talk bad about me or any of this situation to the kids while he has them.
I didn't know if I could actually, do anything, without a lawyer so I didn't.

My kids are distraught and not only don't want to see him but say that they are going to refuse to go when he gets here. They're nervous, upset and my son felt he was going to be physically sick today thinking about it. I told them that I can't go against the Judges order.

Also, their father's lawyer wrote me a letter stating the visitation date and time to be from noon Saturday until 7pm Sunday. Because that was the "assumed" norm before, his lawyer and the kids law guardian feel it is appropriate visitation. However, our divorce decree states "reasonable visitation agreeable upon both parties" and that's all.

My daughter wrote a letter to her law guardian to see if she could at least get it to be just a few hour visit but she has been NO help either. She actually asked my daughter why this is just coming out now if it had been going on for so long?!! (Seems as if she is insinuating that my daughter is dramatizing or making it up or something if you ask me.)

My daughter just reached the age that she began to realize that these situations not only made her uncomfortable but also were unsafe for her and her brother and morally unethical to say the least. It was shortly after she began disclosing these situations to me that I reported it.

I don't have a lawyer yet and can't get in until Wednesday so I have no counsel regarding this weekends visit.

I would have no issues if it was just a "dad and child" spat or something. Then I would certainly tell them to go and try to work it through with him but he is unfit.... not to mention he has a severe sexual addiction (which includes teen porn, homosexuality and bestiality - the reason I divorced him). Unfortunately this lifestyle has obviously increased as it is now filtering over into his time with our children. I never kept the kids from him before because I never thought his filthiness would filter over into his time with them but since our break up he has continually gone downhill. The Judge does not know these things yet and therefore postponed court until I could get a lawyer and continued the visitation.

The kids have suffered emotionally for it; not to mention he's been bashing ME to them for the past three to four years of which I also didn't know about.


Their father filed the petition with the court against me with false allegations/accusations. I assume those have already been read by the Judge and the Law Guardians.....however, my answers to those allegations and my own allegations against him have not.

I have had a canon full of ammunition that I could have used against this man for the past four years to my children (if I was that kind of person/mother) and to others. I know the kind of man he is (depraved in many ways) but I know he was always at least reliable enough to have fun with the kids and would take them to do some adventurous things that I wasn't able to do with them, and even in all of that, I appreciated the fact that he provided that much for them. When we were married he abandoned us dozens upon dozens of times (I know now for sexual binges mainly) but would always return home and I never let on to my kids what was going on except for once when it was nearing the end. They were devestated....and so when he asked to come back, I let him. That was the last time he abandoned us but he did not stop the severe sexual addictions of which I would later find out about. We divorced because he continued lying and using after years of trying to help him and get help for him. Still I wanted the kids to have a relationship with their dad. When he would call to cancel or change days/times/weeks - I never gave him a hassle. When he was four to six weeks behind in support and still never got caught up, I never withheld them. I viewed the two issues as totally separate issues. If the kids were okay about going, then I was okay about them going. But as they got older and began to put two and two together, and started sharing some things with me, and it was a slow revealing process, I finally had to take some measures. I filed a report with Child Protective Services, the first one was actually reported by the school guidance counselor. He was Indicated for that one concerning the marijuana issue but all the other issues were not regarded. I filed a second report upon more findings and was awaiting the outcome of that (hoping they would file for supervised visitation) and in the meantime he filed against me.

I am in the middle....trying to obey the law and be an advocate for my children as well. I don't know what to do. I can't seem to get any help from any where.

My question is what will happen IF my kids (my daughter is 15 now and my son will be 14 in two weeks) absolutely REFUSE to go with him Saturday when he gets here? Will he be able to call the police and will they force my kids to go? I will not violate the court order but how can I force them to go? Can they flat out refuse? And what will happen as a result of it? Will I be held accountable? If their father charges me with contempt, is that an immediate thing or would I have a few days (to retain the lawyer on Wed)? Can he get an immediate warrant that would order the police to come and get the kids and make them go or is there a time factor involved in that as well?

[PapaJohn]

Mare... the bad things your ex is doing far out weigh any good things, in my opinion. He is trying to get your kids to break the law and they are not comfortable with it. I'm pretty sure the laws in the states are the same in Canada regarding the wishes of this children. Your kids should be old enough to express their wishes to the court and to tell the court their concerns and why they do not want to be around their father. I know here in Ontario Children's Lawyers are morons. They do not look out for the best interests of the children at all. It seems his is also the case where you are.
Get a lawyer and let the court know your children wish to speak up and express their wishes.

[tbyte]

You cannot prevent them from going, because that would violate the court orders. But neither do you need to force them to go.
I do not think any court is going to fault you for not forcing the children out of your house. Honestly, I don't see how a 14 and 15 year old can be forced to do anything.
If he calls the police, you simply state that you are not going to force the children to leave your house. The police may document the situation, but they will be very reluctant to get involved beyond that. They are certainly not going to physically grab the children and haul them out, nor would they allow the father to do so. They will simply tell the father to file a case with the court.

Thank you for your support and encouragement. The weekend has come and went and it went more smoothly than I had anticipated. Almost too smoothly....as if he had already known or expected the outcome would be that our children would not want to go wtih him. (Deep down he knows he is the reason for the whole thing but his own issues keep him from being able to face the wrongs he has done and he would rather blame me, maybe even blame his children if it came to that). He "played" the part of distraught dad while here and left after a few minutes. My daughter went to the door and told him she was NOT going and my son was standing behind her. He was so distressed and anxious about seeing his father that he began to get physically sick, and almost passed out. He had to go sit in the recliner and I came inside to see why he wasn't coming out to tell his father he was not going (as I knew his dad would want to hear it from his own mouth) and he could not move. He was so scared and he was a pale as a ghost. (My son has a condition called vasal vago or vago vasal that caused this reaction when stressed or anxious) and so I was thinking perhaps I should go to his pediatrician and see if I could get some kind of statement regarding the condition and that this is obviously quite negatively affecting him. At least it would be documented that he had another spell of which he has not had in approximately nine months.
I am waiting to see or hear something from my exhusbands lawyer today or tomorrow. I will be able to retain my own lawyer on Wed. which will be such a relief to me. I do hope that I am not held accountable for their refusal to go (nor do I feel they should be) because, as you both have said, they are old enough to know and decide what they want to do in this situation and it is not just because they don't "feel" like going - it is because their father has subjected them to the things that are no only inappropriate but even scarey to them.
It just seems that no one listens to any of us. My daughter's law guardian has been no help to her. She wrote a letter expressing all of her fears and concerns to the LG and she STILL wouldn't take it into consideration. It's almost as though she does not believe my daughter or something and I thought the LG was supposed to listen to the children and consider all they had to say. My daughter was told she had to visit her father and that she needed to give him a chance. My daughter said to the LG that no, she knew her dad and he would "behave" for a little while until he felt he had the situation under control and had everyone where he wanted them and that he was only doing all of this to spite her mother.....and the LG said "Who told you that? Your mother?!!!" My daughter said NO! I CAN SEE IT FOR MYSELF. Again, disregarding everything she had to say.
Can we request a new LG or can my daughter? I feel this woman is useless to represent my daughter's concerns. I gave her the benefit of the doubt the first time when she told the Judge that my daughter expressed to here that she would like supervised visitation but that she did not articulate the reasons why very well......as I know my daughter has a harder time expressing herself verbally to strangers.....so I thought, surely, after receiving this letter, hand written and signed by both my son and daughter, she would then say "Oh...ok now I understand" and go from there....but she didn't. She didn't take one thing into consideration that was shared with her.
Well thank you again for your inpurt and I will post what happens as the days go by.
Sincerely,
Mare

[PapaJohn]

Mare, good for your kids for speaking up. What needs to happen is the father needs to clean up his act. If he can't do it on his own then he should seek help. I know exactly what I am talking about from experience. I am/was an alcoholic. I know people say you are an alcoholic for life but I have done so well in controlling it I find it hard to admit I am one for life. When I saw how my drinking was affecting my family (over ten years ago) I quit right there and smartened up and became a better father and husband. I did it on my own but I know not all people can go it alone. I have been alcohol free for over ten years now and feel much better. I'm not one of those preachy ex drinkers though ehhehe... To each their own. If your husband can't do it or won't do it on his own maybe someone should have an intervention.
As for the LG... I believe the children can petition the court to reassign a new LG.. at least they can in Ontario Canada here. Just have the children tell the court that the LG is not working in their best interests and give examples of it.

Thank you.....I agree with you that he needs to clean up his act. Addictions are destructive to those who have them and to those who love them. He caused us much turmoil and though I kept it from my children for as long as I could, overall they were still affected by it as well...cuz when mom's affected, everyone's affected.
I guess you have to really want to change to be able to change. I believe anyone can change and I believe in the power of God in a persons life to help set them free. However, he did not want to change; even at the final risk of losing his wife and children. Sexual addictions and perversions run deep and they are hard to break but if one wants to be free from it, then one will be. He didn't really want to be.
It was bad enough that I had no other choice - if only for my physical well being. I could not put myself at risk of HIV or AIDS because of his promiscuity with men he's never even seen before and worse yet, I am not certain that (excuse the sordidness of this) that bestiality wasn't a current practice. It was all awful. Once I began to see even the slightest hint of any of these behaviors filtering over into visits w/my children, then I had to stop it.
He has told my children such lies that they were so confused and did not know who to believe. I mean why should they not have believed their father as I had never told them anything bad about him and it was rare if a comment did slip from my mouth. They're well being (as always) was more important to me than proving to them what a louse their father was/is. So due to his own actions, I finally had to tell my children the truth. And it was hard. I did not share sordid details but I did tell them what needed to be told and what I felt they could handle at this age....although no child should ever have to find these things out about their parent.
My son has a medical condition that causes him to get weak, turn pale and almost pass out (and has passed out) when he gets anxious or stressed. He hasn't had a spell in almost a year. The doctor ruled out anything serious...but when his father came to pick him up this weekend, the thought of having to see him, talk to him and/or confront him to say that he did not want to go, upset him so much that he passed out. So we are going to his doctor tomorrow to explain to him what is going on and to have documentation of it.
It bothers me, no, it frustrates and even angers me at times to think that we are going through all of this for something he has caused. He's spending money he "never had for child support" to take me to court for something he has caused. He is costing us money we do not have (and have to borrow) for a lawyer, and causing undue anguish and stress. All he would have to do is own up to his own actions for ONCE in his life and admit that he has alienated his children and no one is to blame but himself. He has even laid some of the blame at times on the children themselves!! If he would just do that and lay off and make a decision to change, at least to not subject them to unlawful and immoral situations, then perhaps one day they would be willing to see him again and to work on rebuilding a relationship. Right now they do not trust him and I just don't see how he or a court system could force a child or children to have a relationship w/a parent that they can not trust.
So again, I appreciate your input and encouragement. It has been very refreshing to have this area in which to express my concerns to others who can help....if only by reassurance. Thanks again.
Mare